Radical feminists in Finland?

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Myy
Posts: 10
Joined: 03 Sep 2018 09:39

Radical feminists in Finland?

Post by Myy » 17 Sep 2018 11:20

Are there any of you? :D As far as I know, there are no out and proud radfems in Finnish media and I don't personally know any Finnish radfem groups or publications.

It would be great to get to talk to some like-minded sisters and get somehow organized. I have a few friends who've pretty much agreed with all the radical feminist theory when I've discussed it – it just seems like the vast majority of women are not even aware of radical feminism and that really is a shame.

I've been dreaming about organizing a radfem meet-up for sometime now. Please let me know if you're interested!

Cheers

Pretty Funny
Posts: 147
Joined: 04 Nov 2018 14:30

Re: Radical feminists in Finland?

Post by Pretty Funny » 04 Nov 2018 15:10

Well, I am here. Been reading this forum & other forums and articles and it all seems very interesting. I am still somewhat new to radical feminism but it all seems to make sense... Would be nice to discuss these topics in my mother tongue! Vauva.fi - Aihe vapaa isn't the right forum for discussing radical feminism. :icon_lol:

Myy
Posts: 10
Joined: 03 Sep 2018 09:39

Re: Radical feminists in Finland?

Post by Myy » 06 Nov 2018 17:35

Hey you! I'm pretty new to radical feminism as well. Firstly I read some really disturbing articles on prostitution and sex trafficking in Europe, then found feministcurrent.com a year ago, got to hear the critical voices on gender among many other things, and that's how my journey to radical feminism started. After plenty of online material, I've started reading radical feminist literature as well and it would be so nice to be able to talk about these issues with others in real life.

By the way, are you familiar with this page: https://www.reddit.com/r/FinnishGenderCritical/ ? There are a few semi-active Finnish gender critical feminists discussing there, and there's been some talk that we could try to organize a meeting. :)

Pretty Funny
Posts: 147
Joined: 04 Nov 2018 14:30

Re: Radical feminists in Finland?

Post by Pretty Funny » 06 Nov 2018 17:42

Myy wrote:
06 Nov 2018 17:35
Hey you! I'm pretty new to radical feminism as well. Firstly I read some really disturbing articles on prostitution and sex trafficking in Europe, then found feministcurrent.com a year ago, got to hear the critical voices on gender among many other things, and that's how my journey to radical feminism started. After plenty of online material, I've started reading radical feminist literature as well and it would be so nice to be able to talk about these issues with others in real life.

By the way, are you familiar with this page: https://www.reddit.com/r/FinnishGenderCritical/ ? There are a few semi-active Finnish gender critical feminists discussing there, and there's been some talk that we could try to organize a meeting. :)
Moi Myy! Thanks for the interesting link, I wasn't familiar with that site. I'll definitely have a look at it.

Pretty Funny
Posts: 147
Joined: 04 Nov 2018 14:30

Re: Radical feminists in Finland?

Post by Pretty Funny » 09 Nov 2018 14:08

Myy: I was going through the threads on that site and found this:

Image

The image is about young people seeking treatment for gender dysphoria and it's taken from this blog post: http://www.thehomoarchy.com/do-youth-tr ... ervention/


WHAT on earth is happening in this country? I blame social media.

Finland used to be a country where women could do pretty much anything - have short hair, wear trousers, play sports, be a little bit "gender-nonconforming" and still be a woman. In an agrarian society, people were used to hard physical work. Just when Finns started accepting gays and lesbians, someone comes up with the idea that gnc youth must be transed, that they have to mutilate their perfectly healthy bodies and take hormones! I don't like this at all!

Myy
Posts: 10
Joined: 03 Sep 2018 09:39

Re: Radical feminists in Finland?

Post by Myy » 28 Nov 2018 02:05

Yeah, I'm really worried and frustrated about the current development in Finland. And I agree with you so much - I've always felt like compared to most other countries, in Finland women have had more freedom to be themselves and not to conform to gender norms. I don't know if it's because of the influences coming from social media or what that especially young girls are getting so brainwashed into this gender id bullshit.

Pretty Funny
Posts: 147
Joined: 04 Nov 2018 14:30

Re: Radical feminists in Finland?

Post by Pretty Funny » 28 Nov 2018 02:27

Oh you're online too. Are you suffering from insomnia like me?

I think it's because of social media and social contagion. And in my opinion, despite all the freedom we may have, this is still a deeply misogynistic society. It may not be obvious to the eye but it's definitely there.

Myy
Posts: 10
Joined: 03 Sep 2018 09:39

Re: Radical feminists in Finland?

Post by Myy » 28 Nov 2018 19:24

Haha yeah, I've suffered from insomnia pretty much all my life.

Yeah, I do agree with that Finnish society is still deeply misogynistic but I had somehow naively believed that we were at least going to a better direction. But yeah, the misogyny is often very hidden and it's very frustrating when even women themselves aren't able to see it. I hear women all the time giving excuses for men's sexist shitty actions.

I've also noticed that most don't seem to have any understanding on structural oppression. They say stuff like "gender norms oppress men just as badly as they do women". I mean, yes, gender norms do limit men's humanity but overall gender is a hierarchy that keeps men in power and women subordinate. Both men's gender norms and women's gender norms are used as a tool to oppress women and keep men in power in my opinion. For instance, I've seen a lot of discussion on that "how men are not allowed to show their feelings and that is so oppressing to men". But when you think about this more deeply, the gender norm that men are rational and women are emotional, is actually one of the main tools that gives men more power - and it also leads to that women are expected to do more free emotional labor for men.

Pretty Funny
Posts: 147
Joined: 04 Nov 2018 14:30

Re: Radical feminists in Finland?

Post by Pretty Funny » 28 Nov 2018 19:57

Yep, yep, yep. So true.

When a woman speaks her mind, she is considered either a) overemotional; b) an evil bitch. When a man speaks his mind, he is considered honest, honorable and straightforward even if his arguments are full of crap or if he's just a cruel bully.

I have met tons of men who are very sentimental and emotional. They just don't know how to handle it or how to express it. When they get emotional, they become passive-aggressive (sulking, silent treatment - women are often accused of this but men do it a lot) or overtly aggressive. If men are so rational and logical, then why does the majority of convicted violent criminals consist of men? This applies to all countries and societies. It is not just violent criminals who are usually men - as a matter of fact, the majority of all prisoners are men.

I had a thought about misogyny in Finnish society, but I can't quite put my finger on it or formulate it very well. I was reading about Andrea Dworkin and what she said about leftist and right-wing men. She said that all women are basically oppressed, but in right-wing or conservative circles women at least get some protection from men, while in leftist circles women don't really get true support from men. (Can't remember the exact quote.) I was wondering whether this could be applied to Finnish society as well, I mean when comparing Finland to some more traditional or conservative country.

Think about it like this: In a country where gender roles are more conservative and traditional (what would be a good example? Russia? Perhaps even Estonia?) women are expected to do all the housework and stay in good shape in order to please their husbands. This isn't right and it's oppression of course, but at the same time men are expected to give something back: they are expected to bring food to the table and protect their families. It is also normal that women expect to be pampered by their husbands.

How about Finland? What I see a lot is that women are expected to work outside home AND at the same time they still do the majority of all the housework. They do everything around the house, take care of the kids and do all the micro-managing while their men don't do much. If a man spends some time with his kids, he is considered some kind of superhero, while women don't get any praise for the things they do - because they are still expected to do all the housework and parenting while working outside home at the same time. Have you noticed this pattern too?

Pretty Funny
Posts: 147
Joined: 04 Nov 2018 14:30

Re: Radical feminists in Finland?

Post by Pretty Funny » 28 Nov 2018 21:24

Ï also need to add: In some more traditional societies you still encounter men who could be called classical gentlemen: polite, respectful and willing to help/protect women. Whether they genuinely respect women is a different matter, but at least they are polite. Do such men exist in Finland? In my opinion, they are extremely rare. This may sound harsh, but most Finnish men have very bad manners and poor social skills.

Myy
Posts: 10
Joined: 03 Sep 2018 09:39

Re: Radical feminists in Finland?

Post by Myy » 28 Nov 2018 23:11

Pretty Funny wrote:
28 Nov 2018 19:57

I have met tons of men who are very sentimental and emotional. They just don't know how to handle it or how to express it.
Yeah, I can relate to this! In my intimate relationships to men, I feel like I've pretty much always been the one actively "balancing" the other one's emotional turmoils.
Pretty Funny wrote:
28 Nov 2018 19:57

I had a thought about misogyny in Finnish society, but I can't quite put my finger on it or formulate it very well. I was reading about Andrea Dworkin and what she said about leftist and right-wing men. She said that all women are basically oppressed, but in right-wing or conservative circles women at least get some protection from men, while in leftist circles women don't really get true support from men. (Can't remember the exact quote.) I was wondering whether this could be applied to Finnish society as well, I mean when comparing Finland to some more traditional or conservative country.

Think about it like this: In a country where gender roles are more conservative and traditional (what would be a good example? Russia? Perhaps even Estonia?) women are expected to do all the housework and stay in good shape in order to please their husbands. This isn't right and it's oppression of course, but at the same time men are expected to give something back: they are expected to bring food to the table and protect their families. It is also normal that women expect to be pampered by their husbands.

How about Finland? What I see a lot is that women are expected to work outside home AND at the same time they still do the majority of all the housework. They do everything around the house, take care of the kids and do all the micro-managing while their men don't do much. If a man spends some time with his kids, he is considered some kind of superhero, while women don't get any praise for the things they do - because they are still expected to do all the housework and parenting while working outside home at the same time. Have you noticed this pattern too?
Yeah, I do agree with you that in Finland women are mostly oppressed in a "left-wing" way. I'm in my early 20s and I don't have any friends of my own age who have kids but I'm really interested to see how it will be when some of them do. In my closest social circle men and women do pretty much the same amount of cleaning and cooking (or sometimes men even more:D) but if I think about all the young, hetero couples that I know, that's not so common. I've also noticed that in many relationships the woman is often playing "the role of a mum" - like if we're out partying, it's usually the women who are taking care of their drunk boyfriends and rarely vice versa. It seems like no matter what age, women are expected to be the "adult ones" while "boys are having fun". I think that kind of "manchild" -phenomenon is also very normalized in Finnish popular culture in a way that these "manchildren" are represented in very sympathetic ways. I'd say that generally, in my experience, women are expected to do all the emotional work and in return men are expected to make women laugh with their jokes and silly behavior. Like, the irresponsibility of men is usually somehow fun, comic and understandable but the irresponsibility of women is shameful.

I've also noticed when travelling that many foreign men are much more "protective" and "polite" towards women than Finnish men but I've usually found those manners very pretentious and I'm always veeery cautious if a man seems "too" polite.

Pretty Funny
Posts: 147
Joined: 04 Nov 2018 14:30

Re: Radical feminists in Finland?

Post by Pretty Funny » 28 Nov 2018 23:45

Myy wrote:
28 Nov 2018 23:11
Pretty Funny wrote:
28 Nov 2018 19:57

I have met tons of men who are very sentimental and emotional. They just don't know how to handle it or how to express it.
Yeah, I can relate to this! In my intimate relationships to men, I feel like I've pretty much always been the one actively "balancing" the other one's emotional turmoils.
Pretty Funny wrote:
28 Nov 2018 19:57

I had a thought about misogyny in Finnish society, but I can't quite put my finger on it or formulate it very well. I was reading about Andrea Dworkin and what she said about leftist and right-wing men. She said that all women are basically oppressed, but in right-wing or conservative circles women at least get some protection from men, while in leftist circles women don't really get true support from men. (Can't remember the exact quote.) I was wondering whether this could be applied to Finnish society as well, I mean when comparing Finland to some more traditional or conservative country.

Think about it like this: In a country where gender roles are more conservative and traditional (what would be a good example? Russia? Perhaps even Estonia?) women are expected to do all the housework and stay in good shape in order to please their husbands. This isn't right and it's oppression of course, but at the same time men are expected to give something back: they are expected to bring food to the table and protect their families. It is also normal that women expect to be pampered by their husbands.

How about Finland? What I see a lot is that women are expected to work outside home AND at the same time they still do the majority of all the housework. They do everything around the house, take care of the kids and do all the micro-managing while their men don't do much. If a man spends some time with his kids, he is considered some kind of superhero, while women don't get any praise for the things they do - because they are still expected to do all the housework and parenting while working outside home at the same time. Have you noticed this pattern too?
Yeah, I do agree with you that in Finland women are mostly oppressed in a "left-wing" way. I'm in my early 20s and I don't have any friends of my own age who have kids but I'm really interested to see how it will be when some of them do. In my closest social circle men and women do pretty much the same amount of cleaning and cooking (or sometimes men even more:D) but if I think about all the young, hetero couples that I know, that's not so common. I've also noticed that in many relationships the woman is often playing "the role of a mum" - like if we're out partying, it's usually the women who are taking care of their drunk boyfriends and rarely vice versa. It seems like no matter what age, women are expected to be the "adult ones" while "boys are having fun". I think that kind of "manchild" -phenomenon is also very normalized in Finnish popular culture in a way that these "manchildren" are represented in very sympathetic ways. I'd say that generally, in my experience, women are expected to do all the emotional work and in return men are expected to make women laugh with their jokes and silly behavior. Like, the irresponsibility of men is usually somehow fun, comic and understandable but the irresponsibility of women is shameful.

I've also noticed when travelling that many foreign men are much more "protective" and "polite" towards women than Finnish men but I've usually found those manners very pretentious and I'm always veeery cautious if a man seems "too" polite.
It's good to hear that you understand what I was trying to say. Actually, when I was writing my previous messages, I was thinking of "adult babies" and "manchildren". It seems to be very common that the woman takes care of the house and kids while also trying to manage her job outside home, and when the man is at home he spends most of his spare time watching TV, playing computer games or doing whatever hobbies he has. I see that all the time in my own extended family, and it's a constant source of arguments in those families. But what usually happens is that the man turns it into some kind of joke: "My old lady is nagging at me again, hahaha." The same pattern is repeated over and over again, year after year, and those men never change their habits. Makes me wonder whether those people are happy in their relationships, and what's the point of staying in a relationship that seems like a source of constant frustration? I am single and live alone so I don't know. The older I get (I am a little older than you), the idea of living with a man seems more and more unlikely to me. I just don't see it happening.

Another realization of "adult babies" are those lonely, passive (and possibly autistic) whiny MRA's that seem to be very common on internet forums these days. Those guys blame women for everything and expect women and "society" to do everything for them. No job - women are to blame. Poor social skills - women are to blame. Can't find a girlfriend or sexual partner - women are to blame, of course.

There's also a lot of discussion about why boys are doing so badly at school these days. MRA's think it must be because most teachers are women, because there's too much "feminism" in the Finnish school system these days (that's not even true), and "lively, active and talented" boys are being oppressed by their female teachers. I believe the real reason is that boys are allowed to do whatever they want and no one expects anything from them. If someone is to blame, it is the parents (or should I say fathers with their negative attitudes towards learning and reading). So, the manchild culture is definitely very common in Finland, and many boys absorb it at an early age.

I can understand what you mean by saying about foreign men's politeness being pretentious and suspicious. However, after having spent some time in other countries (i.e. UK and Germany), I think that men in those countries tend to be more genuinely polite than Finnish men, on average.

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