Non-feminist women

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Irina
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Non-feminist women

Post by Irina » 07 Oct 2018 12:23

I noticed that some feminists tend to be more annoyed with non-feminist women than men and patriarchy itself. The "always-blame-the-woman" rule is deeply ingrained in us. I also see a similar argument reiterated: female patriarchy supporters will betray us in a blink of the eye, so feminists need to stay away from them as well as from men.
How do you interact with non-feminist women?

thainparnell
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Re: Non-feminist women

Post by thainparnell » 07 Oct 2018 17:25

I have noticed this, though I personally don't see why women should be held anymore responsible than men for enabling patriarchy. That's the true meaning of not holding someone to a double standard in my book at least. That being said, I definitely think they are stupid for continuing to play along. If all of us said no, patriarchy would crumble overnight, it relies on our cooperation to sustain itself. I am not sure how to reach them, I've often thought about this. I guess each woman has a make or break issue or situation where she is forces to stand up to patriarchy, with some of these women they are right wing, and they look to the left and see misogyny flourishing, so because they are relatively sheltered/ protected by patriarchy, though not of course free, they figure why make a worse trade. I think Dworkin got it right in her book Right Wing Women, women on the right feel that at least they have some protection from men, as men are somewhat bound by those archaic masculine stereotypes they have to live up to. They must not hit a woman, at least, it's not considered acceptable, they must provide, protect etc...

Whereas on the left to a woman from the right, it looks more like a total piss take, where men are free to do anything they want, while women are still limited, apart from the fact leftie men are usually pro choice.

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Peach
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Re: Non-feminist women

Post by Peach » 09 Oct 2018 04:08

I get that non-feminist women are raised to be like that, but it's annoying as hell. It's so much more comfortable to please men and earn cookies from them. But in the end it's eating their self-esteem.
I always try to wake them up by pointing things out. Like after meetings when I say how much time the men took to talk. And some do learn and wake up.

unaksi
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Re: Non-feminist women

Post by unaksi » 09 Oct 2018 08:13

It's sometimes hard and discouraging to see so many women go against their (and our!) own interest, but I always try to keep in mind that they are much more likely than men to open their eyes after being presented with facts. Sooner or later they will relate at least with a part of what they are hearing and will become aware of their actual status as a subordinated class in society.
I can't help feeling empathy for them, many of us were not aware of much of the societal conditioning at some point of our lives, and it's always been other women who took the time and patience to raise awareness in us, who made us think about it and realise a lot of things.

Beatrixkiddvideo
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Re: Non-feminist women

Post by Beatrixkiddvideo » 22 Oct 2018 17:16

I’m always stealthily pointing out gender imbalances to non-feminist women. I use humour a lot, too. I know from experience that the first reaction I get when I present someone with a viewpoint that clashes with their own - ESPECIALLY if the person KNOWS it’s the truth but it makes them uncomfortable or would upset the pleasant little bubble in which they’ve been existing - is defensiveness and disbelief, argumentativeness or pushback. So, like Peach said, I don’t come at people with my fists flying. I talk about myself and use my own life and choices as examples, because my own life is constantly changed by the examples I see in other women. If I see a woman doing something I never thought I could do, then I know *I* can do it. Therefore, I know that just by existing the way I exist, I’m influencing some woman or girl, even if it doesn’t seem like much to me. I think every woman has it in her to become political, because the patriarchal bullshit is everywhere, and I KNOW women are pissed off by it: they’re just not aware of other options, or they’re brainwashed into conformity, like we all are.

I’ve really learned a lot about influence by teaching ESL here in Canada. I hear from students all the time that they’re so surprised that Canadian men and women do/think this or that, and how it’s so “normal” here, things that are weird, unacceptable, or illegal in their home countries. And I like learning about what life is like in other countries, either because it’s really cool and new to me, or it’s terrible and spurs me to more action.

I always keep in mind that it takes people five years, on average, to change their mind about their beliefs. So I know I might not ever see the results of my discussions with other women, but I might have planted a feminist seed somewhere. I’m cool with that 😊

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Irina
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Re: Non-feminist women

Post by Irina » 23 Oct 2018 16:59

Beatrixkiddvideo wrote:
22 Oct 2018 17:16

I always keep in mind that it takes people five years, on average, to change their mind about their beliefs.
Looks like I don't have enough patience :icon_e_biggrin:
It sounds believable, though. It took me about 5 years to transform from a liberal feminist.

VestalVirgin
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Re: Non-feminist women

Post by VestalVirgin » 02 Dec 2018 16:24

Non-feminist women, or antifeminist women?

Most of my friends would probably not describe themselves as feminists, but they don't disagree with me about feminist issues. Some perform femininity and give up their last names in marriage and all that, but they do look out for themselves somewhat and don't let men walk over them.

With women who just don't call themselves feminists, I usually have no problem.

Actually, libfems are worse, as they prioritize men over women and then call that feminism.

Antifeminists, who actively oppose feminism, are so annoying, I rarely interact with them in real life (if I have to) and might spend some time trying to convince them online, but usually give up quickly. (Same with libfems, though libfems fly under the radar for longer and have hurt me in the past by suddenly turning on me when I "outed" myself as knowing about biological facts.)

I admire all women who have the energy to engage with antifeminists, really. I do think we should help antifeminist women see that it is in their own best interest to become feminists, but personally, I just can't do it. Don't have the energy, don't have the patience.

Jay_Nayre
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Re: Non-feminist women

Post by Jay_Nayre » 13 Mar 2019 21:44

I am still catching up with the forum as a relative newcomer so apologies for the very late post.

This is from my own personal experience with friends, family and online interactions but one thing I have noticed is that it isn't as simple as left wing feminists/right wing feminists anymore (if it ever was). I know plenty of women who are radical feminists but right of centre and left wing women who wouldn't know feminism if it hit them in the eye.

Lesbians have always been seen as traditionally left wing but I was gobsmacked to overhear a woman say to a lesbian that she couldn't be a lesbian if she didn't vote Labour!

As for the non feminists, some are open to suggestion whilst others can't undrape themselves from their latest stud. I try writing articles and do get a few converts from time to time but the trans issues have been a godsend. Non feminists are starting to scream for entry to the club! :icon_lol:

Sibyl
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Re: Non-feminist women

Post by Sibyl » 16 Mar 2019 15:09

Welcome Jay. I'm new here too. In terms of non and anti feminist women, for me slow and steady wins the race. I present the ideas of feminism without labels to people I think may be resistant. Further, I think a lot of that resistance is internalized misogyny and the command performance of femininity expected from all women. In short these women aren't the enemy, they are brainwashed and oppressed and live in fear and most importantly in denial so they can survive.

Ok, choose carefully which women to exert effort on until we have a much stronger movement and female society but don't dismiss these women entirely. One of our first goals imo has to be the ability to provide safety and security to ourselves and other women as women and right now we cant. So of course women go where safety appears to reside, even if that is with men. Right Wing Women does an amazing job of outlining this logic, not just for conservative women but for every woman who has played a round of "not like the other girls" hoping to escape male misogyny.
Most women I know feel like outlaws. - Marilyn French

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